| Author | Comment | ||
|---|---|---|---|
Unregistered(d) |
Racism in todays Jazz Vocal music/music in general |
Lead | |
|
While at Monterey Jazz Festival recently where I got to see Ms Monheit peform (she does have an exquisite voice sort of like Julia Andrews who if she chose to sing the jazz music could probably do so,in a similar feel) Anyway, tower records had a booth out there selling records and advertising jazz artist and this is also where the stars go to sign the records. Right at the door of the booth there were two huge displays of Diana Krall and Jane Monheit (jazz's so called two hottest stars). If a Martian came down here on earth and landed at the festival, he would think that jazz music was a music that was dominated by white vocalist, no blacks in sight. And that is what is sooo sad to me. How the Music industry so insidiously markets whites to the mainstream and pushes them onto the mainstream and that same industry does not support blacks in the same way. Both Diana Krall and Jane Monheit were guest on CBS morning shows. While I am glad that jazz vocalists are on morning shows and are bringing attention to the relatively obsure music (to the main public that is) of jazz, I am saddened that all the attention is given almost exclusively to the white singers. Why is this?? What message is the industry sending out to black singers (who historically are the legends of this music)To me it is the same old racism in music that has been pervasive for all times. As soon as a white person becomes "popular' doing something that isn't up to par as the least gifted black person can do it. "the White industry" will move heaven and earth to push that white artist to the forefront and meanwhile push the blacks out. It happens in Rock in Roll, R&B and in pop. I don't fault the individual artists themselves, I blame the industry. Who are wielding their almighty power unwisely. Somehow blacks survive through all of this by working in the background, some becoming producers to white acts. (Brittany Spears has a lot of black producers to give her that "black sound)". Why hasn't a black act been able to rise so swiftly and gain the attention that both Ms. Krall and Miss Monheit has gained??? Most of the ones who are on top now, paid their dues for a long amount of time before, dues that both Monheit and Krall may have paid in half the time. And still the so called black stars are not there. Some have come and died down, I do admit in this fickle business of music, no body can maintain musical popularity for any length of time. Even Natilie Cole (whose Unforgettable Album) was a smash hit has cooled considerably. But then Natlie Cole's claim to fame was not that as a jazz singer, but that as an R&B singer back in the 70's and 80's. But strictly in the category of Jazz vocalist only, I am starting to see the "new face" in jazz. And I am saddened that the music industry in their push to the popular mainstream are neglecting to include a more diverse artists in their marketing efforts. Are even include artists who are doing "real jazz" not just this retro-pop standards. What about Karn Allison, who is also blue-eyed and blond and good looking and plays the piano, but like Helen Merrill in the 60's (who eventually left to Japan) isn't popular, because she is doing the true jazz. She recently released a CD called "ballads" in tribute to John Coltrane. Why isn't the music indutry behind her?? Or Carla Cook, a jazz vocalist who released a CD on MaxJazz Label. She has an excellent voice and talk about someone carrying the Sarah Vaughan, Torch? She swings, she improvises, she scats. She brings that element of soul, blues, and depth, that is such an important part of jazz, to the music?? Why isn't Mary Stallings pushed more, Jean Carne?? Marlena Shaw, Carmen Bradford (msp??) Now there's a singer that really carries on the tradition of Ella. She used to sing with the count Basie orchestra. I have several of her recordings. She performed Mr. Paganini. And she is soooo bad. She was also good friends with Ella. I heard her give testimony on the A&E's biography show about her experiences with Ella. My point is, there are just so many great singers out there who are really carrying on the tradition of jazz in the same spirit as the greats Louis,Billie, Ella, Sarah Carmen, Betty. And the mainstream public don't get to hear about them because all they hear about are the singers who are heavily marketed by the music industry. And the sad part about it is the industry tells the public, hey these singers are the next best thing, and the public buys into that without really investigating further. If the industry weren't so selective in what they think the public would actually buy into, then I think more great singers would get more exposure. Because I think the buying public don't care what color a singer is, they just want to hear great music!!! But the music industry is the one to me that is continuing with this discrimination in who they choose to push into the spotlight and who get's left behind. But then it can be just a matter of taste as well. Here is an example (and I know a lot of people will get angry) But it is the difference between Frank Sinatra, (who was an excellent singer in my opinion, I own a lot of his albums, Frank Sinatra with the Basie Orchestra live at the Sands is a must have!!). Frank had it, the chops, the intonation, he can sing the hell out of a ballad, he was just baad!!!! But then years ago someone turned me on to Johnny Hartman,Joe Williams, and Billy Eckstein, three wonderful male singers who came along during the same time as Frank Sinatra and I was just really blown away!!! Now they had the depth, the soul and the blues, they really had it all!!! But then everybody had heard of Frank Sinatra, and in comparison, the general public had not heard as much about the latter three singers. Why??? Again, the music industry, why push someone who just might outshine your "main star" and let us not forget the racism of the times that prevented a lot of blacks from getting exposure. Well that racism is still here now.
|
|||
Unregistered(d) |
Monheit | ||
|
It would be interesting to list those singers mentioned in the order of their earnings for the year. This is not the time to be crying about racism. Man, we are all in the same boat. Max, if you lived in New York, and observed the suffering by all races, you would weep!!!
|
|||
Unregistered(d) |
Racism in todays Jazz Vocal music/music in general | ||
|
To Producer, I am very saddened by the events in NYC recently, I watched along with the rest of the nation as the horrors of terrorism unfolded, I have two sons who have been deployed to the middle East, one in the navy the other in the National guard to fight for our country's freedom. My own father a black soldier fought in the world war 2 for "freedom" only to come home to a freedom he himself couldn't have. Is there ever a good time to talk about racism??? And what does the tragedy in NYC have to do with this topic?? Specifically as it pertains to the music industry machine? This industry that has for years ripped off black artists, not paid them royalties when white artists were covering songs that they wrote.(among other things) The music industry is notorious for a lot of ugly things that have happened to minority artists through the years. It is subtle, it is insidious but it is pervasive. Most people don't want to hear about this ugly subject. But not talking about it doesn't make it go away. Perhaps if more people talked about it, then more attention would be drawn to it.
|
|||
Unregistered(d) |
Monheit | ||
|
I spent 4 years in the Navy . 1942-1946. Saw Quite a bit of action!! You should have been there!!! I came away with a Silver Star.
|
|||
Unregistered(d) |
Monheit | ||
|
Oh, I forgot to mention--- I'm black also, but stopped crying a long time ago.
|
|||
Unregistered(d) |
Racism in todays Jazz Vocal music/music in general | ||
|
I am glad that we have many other advocates who stand up for what is right and they have not lost the "cry" for justice and I hope they or myself never will. Advocates like Ebony Magazine who publishes a number of articles about how the music has been taken over. (I have the magazines.) It is because of the "crying" that changes have been made so that brothers like you and me can enjoy a lot of freedoms we tend to take for granted today. I hope I never stop the cry. The racism has not stopped. It has just become more subtle, like the proverbial wolf in sheep clothing now. Man I am not going to trade what has become petty snipes back and forth with you. You have made this personal. It seems you don't like it if someone says something that you disagree with and you have to resort to petty sniping. I have simply put my opinion out there as this message board allows people to do, (Freedom of speech) not to get into a one on one arguement with you. You have your life experiences and you are coming from that, and I have mine. It is not for me to say you are wrong and I am right and vice versa, so let's not make this personal. I noticed you titled your replies Monheit and this issue is not specific to her. This is a whole new topic So it seems you are still coming at it from a certain perspective and that is OK by me man. We are all entitled to speak our piece
Peace Man |
|||
Unregistered(d) |
racism | ||
|
Max,
I can't help being a little confused about your approach to your proposed topic of racism. Maybe it's my ignorance, or that I just don't pay special attention to the ethnicity of the jazz artists I listen to and play with, but I have always had trouble understanding racism. As a little girl whose best friend in the world had to move away to a state that had a bigger black population, because she and her brothers were called bad names on the playground, I didn't understand why the other kids thought they were different. Now, as an adult, I still find it hard to understand why some (definitely not all) of the black people I know feel the need to separate themselves from "us" by using terms like "brother" and stuff like that. Don't mistake me, I understand that many black people share what they see as a common bond; the oppression of their culture throughout history. I just don't understand how alienating white people like me is going to help that, especially when the lot of us want nothing more than to develop relationships with people who intrigue us, not because of their stature, but their personality, sense of humor, confidence or attraction. I suppose I never will fully understand, as I have never personally been oppressed for my color. But perhaps the fact that when and if I make my break, it may be assumed by a few people that I'll never be as good as the least gifted black singer, that may be a form of oppression. Or maybe the fact that I've been overweight through my teens and now into adulthood, and have been treated differently, treated like less than I was because I didn't look like everyone else did or thought I should. No, I know nothing of oppression or discrimination. But you know what I've found? When people hear me sing, no matter what impression they've formed of me from my looks, it soon changes to an unfettered impression of what I have to offer as a singer. And when I found confidence in that fact, I came out of my shell and let who I really was shine through, so people don't automatically see a big girl anymore. If they speak to me, they find that I am self-assured and that I'm someone many of them want to know. I can never be glad enough that I stopped hiding behind my "shell" and began to only let my true self be seen. Of course, it must be different because I was conveniently born with white skin. So, because of that convenience, I may still be a little annoyed or hurt when I watch comedy acts on BET where they constantly talk about how white folks just "don't get it" and how they'll never be as cool or as funky or have as much soul as them. And I'll always be sad that a relationship I had with a wonderful black man, who was always just a man to me, ended because his mother and sister (who never cared to get to know me)told him he should only be with black women, that it hurt them to see him with a white girl. And maybe I'll always wonder why it never bothered me that almost every jazz singer and instrumentalist I listen to and was first introduced to was and is black, while others would probably be sad if a black singer listened primarily to white artists. But I guess there's not much I can do, since I feel that the best way for me to combat racism is to never be a part of it, as I have never been. People are people, and I would hope that every musician would understand that music should be the great equalizer, the place where you are judged and appreciated for just your talents, not your social standing or culture. All music comes from the same starting place, the soul, and I don't think the outside of the source should matter. Whether or not you agree with anything I've been saying, max, please understand that to some people, your post sounds as if you're just reversing the racism. For instance, what if a Martian had landed on Earth when the great black artists were just "it?" He may think that jazz music was done solely by black people, that white people had no part in it. Or perhaps he would be wiser, and just see a person, not a color. |
|||
Unregistered(d) |
Racism in vocal jazz | ||
|
Meshell--- Very,very well put. You said it all.
|
|||
Unregistered(d) |
Racism in todays Jazz Vocal music/music in general | ||
|
meshelle, thanks for your response. It was beautiful!!!
If the music industry saw things as you put them in your post, there would be no need for the concerns. Unfortunately that is not the case in the music business/marketing industry. It may be the case with individual artists such as yourself. But people in power who are the big dogs, the decision makers, the movers and shakers in the industry, the ones who dictate to the public, see through eyes that are not as good as your eyes. Mores the pity. |
|||
Unregistered(d) |
Racism in vocal jazz | ||
|
And how many singers came from wealthy families, then stuck the money up their noses via the white powder. Many who did make it, ended up the same way!!
|
|||
Unregistered(d) |
racism in todays jazz vocal music/music in general | ||
|
Max I want to thank you for your post because it brought out a lot of things that needed to be said.I'm sick of the racism that is evident in the music business,but what can i as a Black man do about it?
I love Jane Monheit and Diana Krall but I understand the frustration of many deserving Black artists who get no exposure.For instance I had never heard of Mary Stallings or Carmen Bradford before I read your post.I will make it my business to check these singers out.For one thing there are few good jazz radio stations .The jazz they play here in Washington,D.C.is nothing more then pop instrumentals.If I want to hear Miles ,or Coltrane I have to just go out and buy their records. As much as I love Jane Monheit and I defended her on these threads,I realize that she as well as Ms.Krall are boosted by the industry because they are attractive white women who sing music that was created by African Americans.Racism is alive and well in this country.It should be discussed.I find that whenever you try to talk about racism some whites will get defensive and accuse you of reverse discrimination then start talking about this melting pot.Why is it so difficult for them to admit that racism is rampant in this country?It thrives in the Jazz music industry too.Johnny Hartman just blows me away.But I only heard him for the first time while watching that movie Bridges of Madison County where he was so prominent on the sound track.I had never heard of him until then.I think your post is very relevent.Thanks for listing the names of those singers that I should know about. |
|||
philly |
racism | ||
|
Hello as a black singer in the Philly area,I know just what you are talking about.Even on the local beat a white chick always gets the best gigs.There are too or three in Philly as soon as a place starts jazz they always get the gigs.We have some good black singers here a lot of people don't know about Denise King she has 3 or 4 cd out.Brenda Smith and Barbara Walker all are really good.I know a few singers in NYC who have told me the same story.So it really is happening even though some people try to act like they don't understand.That is BS......Thanks for sharing........
|
|||
Unregistered(d) |
Racism in todays Jazz Vocal music/music in general | ||
|
Thanks for everyone's response, that is what this message post if for. It is good for everyone to give input and I hope we can do so in a fashion that won't "run" others off the board. To DaddyMack and Philly, the way the industry works, it does make me wonder sometimes, if there was a young attractive black woman in the field of Jazz Vocals between the ages of 23-40 (to me that is still quite young), I wonder if everything else being equal, the talented voice is there, the looks, everything!! Would she be boosted by the music industry in the same way that Monheit and Krall have been boosted. I have seen and heard many a young singer and many a not so young singer in my day that have been excellent in their craft but have never seen the skyrocketing exposure granted to these two singers. Johnny Hartman's story is pretty interesting. He was a big band singer and would get a lot of cabarat gigs. Then he did the album with Coltrane (that was just soo great!!) and got labeled by the industry (at that time) as a jazz singer and he pretty much lost a lot of his "popular" gigs". I recently heard this story on NPR That is another thing that is wrong besides the jazz radio stations is this labeling. I don't have any answers as to how we can fix this problem. Write to the record companies? I don't know if anyone has any suggestions I would be happy to hear them. We should definitely share our list of respective singers that we know with each other. I had heard of Denise King before by a prominent drummer I who is good friends with my son. So the musicians who are in the know, "know". But it is a shame that these singers remain underground when their gifts are so great!!!
|
|||
Unregistered(d) |
Racism in jazz vocals | ||
|
I see many of these mentioned singers at the Vanguard, Birdland, etc. all the time. Maybe New York is a different place. Maybe the rest of the country interested in jazz, should catch up!!
|
|||
Unregistered(d) |
Jazz in Vocal | ||
|
By the way, Mary Stalling just finished up at the Vanguard a couple of weeks ago. I believe the her cd is entitled " At The Vanguard".
|
|||
Unregistered(d) |
Racism in todays Jazz Vocal music/music in general | ||
|
I agree Producer and if the singers like Mary Stallings had the sort of "in your face" exposure given to both Ms, Monheit and Ms. Krall, maybe the rest of the country will catch up.
|
|||
Unregistered(d) |
Racism in Jazz Vocal | ||
|
Man, I'm in the business. Are you telling me? That is why I mentioned the Vanguard. How do you think these people are getting gigs? You read too much!!!
|
|||
Unregistered(d) |
Racism in todays Jazz Vocal music/music in general | ||
|
OK Producer, since you are in the business, why don't you tell me?? Please enlighten me about how people like Mary Stallings are getting gigs. Please enlighten me how people like DaddyMack (one of many I'm sure) have never heard of this woman who has been in the business for many, many years and once sang with Dizzy Gillespie. Please enlighten me as to why people like Jane Monheit and Diana Krall, both get the marketing boost normally afforded to pop stars and why this isn't the "norm" for people like Mary Stallings, Carmen Bradford, and other singers that I have mentioned before and some not mentioned?? Please enlighten me about how the singers,like Mary Stallings, Carmen Bradford and others have not had the major exposure of Monheit and Krall. Exposure like television, Monheit was featured on CNN Entertainment (saw it at an airport once while waiting for a flight. CBS Morning show, Airlines inflight magazines. (saw them in those airplane magazines). Numerous articles in newspapers across the country and all at the tender age of 23 and I am not sure of Krall's age but I believe it is early to mid 30's. Please enlighten me as to why other singers who in my opinion are just in another league as far as the jazz singing goes just have not had that exposure and probably won't get it. Please tell me how people can "catch" up to something when they don't know it is out there. Most jazz singers, don't get that kind of exposure, certainly not the black singers. Even the popular black singers out there now, Dee Dee Bridgewater, Diana Reeves, Cassandra Wilson don't get that kind of hard hitting marketing boost as Ms. Monheit and Ms. Krall. Yes they can fill a club, but it is not because the industry has boosted them as it has Monheit and Krall, it is because of their reputations that they have earned the hard way!!! No hype from the industry. Maybe the industry came in after the fact. I recently read an article in which Nancy Wilson a living legend said and this was in Jet Magazine, that after her Christmas album which will be released on Telarc label, she is not going to make any more recordings for a while because her record company isn't supporting her recordings. Now here Nancy Wilson is, a living legend who is disgruntled about how the music industry is treating her!! Monheit or Krall don't have that problem do they?? Now can Nancy Wilson sell out a club?? You bettcha!! She has built a reputation on what she can do without the boost of the music industry. And she can survive as a jazz artist whether she is hyped up and pushed and promoted by the music industry or not. Nancy will stand, same as Mary Stallings. That is not the point whether they perform at the Village or Birdland, or Yoshi's or the Blue Note. The whole point of the matter of this post is that the music industry does choose who they will make a "star." They do promote their chosen star. The mainstream public does get exposed to that "chosen star". And this same attention isn't accorded to other deserving jazz artists who aren't fortunate enough to be chosen. Do these other artists stop performing? Of course not. They go on. But it still doesn't negate what is happening out there with the music industry.
|
|||
Unregistered(d) |
Racism in todays Jazz Vocal music/music in general | ||
|
Also Producer, while you are enlightening me, please tell me when was the last time a young 23 year old minority jazz female vocalist was catapulted to stardom the same way Monheit was? Or when was the last time a 30ish year old black vocalist was granted the exposure as Krall?? Exposure like that of a pop star?? Are there just not any minority vocalists out there worthy of such marketing boost?? By the time most black vocalist are granted the entrance into national and international fame by the music industry, many of them have been performing many, many years beforehand in relative obscurity and are in their early 40's are close to it by the time international acclaim (as far as the general public goes) smiles down on them. So they don't have the advantage of the sweet youth that everybody is so facinated with Ms. Monheit. In their youth, they were virtually unknown by today's national recognition standards. Or they were discovered and then they were "dropped" by the wayside. Never to be heard from again or not for a long while. They weren't snatched up right away and thrust into the limelight as though they were the next best thing to sliced bread. They have to fight tooth and nail to get what they get. They have to be twice as good to get half as much. I know there are young black/minority female jazz vocalist out there, why aren't they getting the management and agents in their corner so they can be on national tv, play the international jazz Festivals around the world and be in newspapers across the country. So they can be heralded as the next coming of Ella?? It is great that Monheit and Krall are so successful, but Geez, they can't be the only ones out there can they?? I just know there are other young female talents out there and I do say minority because I have yet to see a young black female vocalist in jazz music in post modern jazz times, get the kind of exposure that both Monheit and Krall enjoy.
|
|||
Unregistered(d) |
Racism in todays Jazz Vocal music/music in general | ||
|
I wanted to add an additional reply in response to DaddyMack's question "what can I as a black man do about the racism in jazz music specifically in vocal jazz?" I don't have the answers for that, but one thing I can do is to share a list of a few singers that I call unsong heroes/heroines. Many of these singers have put out their own independent recordings, many of them are big in their local areas. Many are well known by a lot of famous jazz musicians and vocalists. One good record label to check out is MaxJazz records. They recorded Mary Stallings latest CD. Live at the Village Vanguard. Their website www.maxjazz.com They don't have a wide distribution, but they do record outstanding jazz vocalists. Check out Phillip Manuel, a New Orleans native, who scats with great agility. I have heard him live on several occassions. Great!!! Another singer that I have admired and wondered, What happened to her? Is Gabrielle Goodman. She has two cds one released in 1994 called Until we Love and one released in 1993 called Travelin light She is baaad!!! If you think Ms. Monheit has the prettiest voice in jazz now, wait until you hear her. She has a 4 octave range and uses every one. The players on her two albums include, ChristiaMcBride, Kevin Eubanks, Mulgrew Miller, Terri Lyne Carrington, Marvin Smitty Smith, Gary Thomas, Kenny Davis and a host of others. This chick is sooo bad, she just drew the creme of the crop of musicians to record with her. She wasn't promoted and sort of dropped out of sight. At least I haven't heard what she has been up to. I would love to catch her in concert. She is a good looking black woman too!! There is Vanessa Rubin, Germaine Bazzle (another New Orleans local who recorded with Dianne Reeves Grand Encounter album. Again, there are sooo many out there who remain unpromoted and relegated to oblivion as far as the mainstream general public is concerned and that is a shame. There are so many great wonderful singers out there who deserve to shine just as Ms. Monheit and Ms. Krall are shining. They deserve to be pushed, promoted and yes hyped!!! But sadly they are not. I hope to hear of others so that I can go out and buy their music and help them by telling others about them. Word of mouth, this works wonders despite what the music industry fails to do for these wonderful ladies. Please posts your list of singers too. I love to buy "unknowns" so to speak!!!
Peace everyone Mac |
|||
Unregistered(d) |
max... | ||
|
Hey max,
Just wanted to let you know that I've heard of and listened to music from almost every one of those singers you've mentioned. And I'm over here in the Pacific Northwest (not even Seattle). Just thought you should know. Believe it or not, there are people I know who have not heard of Jane Monheit, or even Diana Krall and have indeed appreciated music from the majority of the aforementioned "struggling" artists. Meshell |
|||