O.K. After 50 years in the business, and two degrees in business administration, I find that laymen know more than I do, so I'm letting go of the thread.
Racism in todays Jazz Vocal music/music in general
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 Unregistered(d) |
jazz in Vocals | ||
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Posts: 0 (10/02/01 03:47:45) |
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philly |
producer | ||
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Posts: 111 (10/02/01 05:31:08) |
Hey if you have been out there 50 years.Then you know when we had to come in the back door.We still do they just made the doors differnt.....
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Songstress |
Racism in todays Jazz Vocal music/music in general | ||
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Posts: 21 (10/02/01 07:05:17) |
Sometimes it takes a layman assuming that max is a layman, to see something that people who are in the business can't see just because they are in the business and are too close to "see" what is happening because they are focusing on their particular business. So they can't see the forest for the "trees". I would have been interested in this man (producer's) to max's questions. I too am a female vocalist, I sing R&B and pop with a corporate band, we perform for a lot of conventions in Atlanta; and I do watch a lot of trends in all the different genres of music and it doesn't take a "rocket" scientist to see what Producer is talking about. Just someone who is observant. By the way, some of my best friends are caucasian american but I do understand where producer is coming from. I do think it is great for krall and monheit. (I have heard krall sing, heard of monheit, but not heard her sing) but it isn't great for the industry in jazz to exclude minority singers in their push for promoting their white stars
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Songstress |
racism (my correction on previous post above) | ||
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Posts: 21 (10/02/01 07:22:19) |
Sometimes it takes a layman assuming that max is a layman, to see something that people who are in the business can't see just because they are in the business and are too close to "see" what is happening because they are focusing on their particular business. So they can't see the forest for the "trees". I would have been interested to read Producers answers to Max's questions. I too am a female vocalist, I sing R&B and pop with a corporate band, we perform for a lot of conventions in Atlanta; and I do watch a lot of trends in all the different genres of music and it doesn't take a "rocket" scientist to see what MAX is talking about. Just someone who is observant. By the way, some of my best friends are caucasian american, and I myself am the product of a caucasian American mother and Jamaican Father, I do think my looks went a long way in my securing this well sought after gig. (my complexion is light and I am longhaired and very attractive)(This bothered me as I know many singers who were very talented some more than I was, who could have gotten this gig) So I do understand where MAX is coming from. And while I do think it is great for krall and monheit. (I have heard krall sing, and love her work, heard of monheit, but not heard her sing) It isn't great for the industry in jazz to exclude minority singers in their push for promoting their white stars.
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Unregistered(d) |
racism | ||
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Posts: 0 (10/02/01 10:27:57) |
What is sad to me man, is that Producer, a man who claims to have been in the music business for 50 years (and a brother too!!!) and who is educated has to be convinced by another brother on the outside,I am guessing, about the racism that runs rampant in the music industry. I don't know if Producer is a big time "producer" in the business but if his ignorance or unwillingness to "see" is indicative of what we are dealing with in the music business, then it is no wonder deserving African American jazz singers are going unoticed, they have no one to champion their cause,
peace, from another layman from the windy city |
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Tehrin |
Racism in the Music Industry. | ||
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Posts: 169 (10/03/01 08:33:01) |
Racism IS pervasive all throughout the industry...why?...because,racism is pervasive all throughout LIFE!All throughout the history of this country,Whites have ALWAYS been favored over Blacks.We've ALWAYS been exploited for our gifts,and talents,just to have a white person take all credits,and receive all of the accolades!And it's still like that to this day. We need to keep talking about this problem,because it's NOT going away,as Max pointed out.But more than just talk about the problem,we need to take action,as well...both on an individual,and collective level.For example,I'm employed at the Queens Village School of Music and the Arts,and what I see alot is,when I get White students who, join my Jazz program,who know about people like Duke Ellington or,Sarah Vaughn,as opposed to the GREAT many Black students I get who are,clueless! So,what I try to do is to,educate these students(as well as their parents,in many cases),to these people,and WHY it's sooo important to know who these people are,and what they mean to our heritage. I do this outside of the school,as well. By doing this,I've found that,this creates a dialogue among these students,and hopefully this also spills over to other people in our communities. Now,this is what I do,on an individual level,...the question is:How can we change this on a collective level? Producer said something that, I feel is very key;"I stopped crying a long time ago". What I took from that was,in 50 years he's been able to make his own breaks,despite everything.Very commendable on an individual level.So my point is this;we need to bring together people like,Producer,myself,and others who are working on an individual level to bring about a change to this problem,and brainstorm...keep this conversation in the air.I feel that by,bringing these experiences and,ideas to the table,we can then form some type of coalition that can be geared towards vigorously,promoting Black artists'...and not only to promote them,but protect them,as well.I'm also a professional musician with 33 years in the business.What I see alot is,Blacks not getting the same vigorous representation as our white counterparts...we don't even make the same money!A large part of the problem is that,no one is educating these people...and this is very sad to me! So those of us who know,need to educate those who don't(I feel). So these are just a couple of ideas that I have,based upon what I've seen. What do you think?
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Tehrin |
Racism in the Music Industry. | ||
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Posts: 169 (10/03/01 09:10:45) |
P.S. I've said all of that to say;in order to fight this problem on the"musical" level,we have to continue to fight it on the"life" level. Peace!
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Unregistered(d) |
Racism in todays Jazz Vocal music/music in general | ||
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Posts: 0 (10/03/01 12:35:55) |
Thanks for your input Tehrin, I read where the NAACP got involved with the entertainment industry and put pressure on them to hire more blacks both in front and behind the cameras, do you think this would be an issue they would be interested in?? Also, I read in People Magazine and this was maybe 3 or 4 months ago, where they ran an article on blacks in entertainment and the lack of opportunity for blacks. People like Vivica A. Fox, Chris Rock and others spoke of their experiences as minoritites in Hollywood. So there is another source as well. Also Ebony magazine always publishes articles about how blacks are exploited and unpaid in the music business. So perhaps this can be a way to shed light onto this problem as it relates to not only the music industry, but specifically to the black jazz vocalists (which is just one more genre) where blacks are being left out and whites are getting all the accolades. What is your opinion.
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Unregistered(d) |
Vocal Jazz | ||
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Posts: 0 (10/04/01 05:31:07) |
Has anyone made a list of the singers mentioned, then checked to see whether they have been signed by a major label, or a small independent?
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Unregistered(d) |
racism | ||
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Posts: 0 (10/04/01 11:02:08) |
What is your point Engineer? What is that supposed to prove or dispute?
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Unregistered(d) |
racism | ||
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Posts: 0 (10/04/01 11:03:36) |
Engineer, since you made the suggestion, why don't you make the list and share your findings on the post.
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Songstress |
Racism in todays Jazz Vocal music/music in general | ||
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Posts: 21 (10/04/01 11:09:46) |
I recently bought Monheit's CD, Come dream with me and she does have a wonderful voice, I see she is with N-Coded Records. I don't know much about what is considered a major record label or what is considered a small record label. However, I don't see what record label an artist is signed to have to do with whether that artist is promoted in the industry or not. I don't think N-coded is large, but Monheit is certainly promoted. So I don't think one has really to do with the other. I too, am curious about what Engineer's point is. In the R&B,pop world artists are signed to record labels all the time, some major but not all those artists are promoted equally. Some are promoted more than others. There are major and minor stars in record labels. Out here we have LaFace records and they sign artists all the time, not all as well known as others. (again this is in R&B) but I don't think it is all that different in other genres of music
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Unregistered(d) |
Vocal jazz | ||
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Posts: 0 (10/04/01 14:38:08) |
Just suggested that large labels have more promotional money than independents. It is the label that does the promotion.
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Unregistered(d) |
Jazz vocal | ||
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Posts: 0 (10/04/01 16:17:54) |
When you see a cd on the listening post, it is there because the record label paid a fee.
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philly |
Racism | ||
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Posts: 111 (10/05/01 03:37:57) |
Sometimes it is not how big or small a label is.It is who the distributor is.That is what makes or breaks a recording.Betty Carter had her own label but it was poorly distributed.
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Unregistered(d) |
Jazz Vocals | ||
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Posts: 0 (10/05/01 04:47:09) |
Philly-- Now you are catching on to the business. Major labels have major distributors. Small independents cannot afford the fees of major companies. If you record for a major label, the your music gets moved. You must also have a manager who knows how to get the gigs for you.
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Unregistered(d) |
Racism in todays Jazz Vocal music/music in general | ||
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Posts: 0 (10/05/01 07:41:07) |
Engineer, is distrubition of a record, the only factor to consider in the promotion of an artist? I believe I read that Monheit records for a small label, yet her CD's are widely distributed? And she must have great managment/agents in order for her to get the exposure that she has gotten according to what I have read in this post. Then how do you explain that? There are some inconsistencies here. Are you saying that Max's post isn't valid, that all of what is happening with black jazz female vocalist who are in the business and who are not being promoted is just because of lack of distribution of their records? I am somewhat confused, but I want to know. Please explain
Thanks |
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Tehrin |
Racism in the Music Industry. | ||
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Posts: 169 (10/05/01 08:21:06) |
To Max:I think that,this IS something they would be interested in...in fact,I believe that,they've ALREADY taken an interest. I have some sources who,are connected to the NAACP...I can put this same question by them for you,then get back to you,if you'd like.
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Unregistered(d) |
Jazz Vocal | ||
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Posts: 0 (10/05/01 13:34:30) |
Distribution was Philly's cotribution, but distribution must be paid for and is expensive. This is the reason that a lot of artists do their own recording and production. They then have trouble finding a good distributor who will handle their recordings at a modest fee. It is six of one, and a half dozen of the other. Between a rock and a hard place!!
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Unregistered(d) |
Jazz vocal | ||
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Posts: 0 (10/05/01 13:40:19) |
I should have mentioned, and I'm sorry that I did'nt, that you would be surprised at how many pieces the pie is cut up into. The performer gets little or none of the proceeds. This is why many performers try to do the whole trick on their own. They realize little of the profit!!
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